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tictictic_OnEbay
(enthusiast)
01/15/08 02:47 PM
Paypal Payment Reversed!  

Am I the only one who didn't know Paypal payments could be reversed? I ship same or next day for cash, USPS money orders, and Paypal instant payments. I think most people do. I delay shipping for checks (even cashier's) and non-UPSP MOs.

Today, I got this from Paypal:
...............................................................................................
We were recently notified that a payment you received was reversed by the buyer’s bank. A bank reversal can be requested by the bank itself or the bank account holder.

As a result, the following transaction has been reversed:
Transaction Date: Jan. 3, 2008
Transaction Amount: $8.37 USD
Buyer's Email: ----------@hotmail.com
Buyer's Name: Chris S.
Your Transaction ID: 3DH743928........
...............................................................................................

Fortunately, not a lot of money involved. I've emailed the buyer asking for him to resend his payment. Not holding my breath. He's been an eBay member for six years, has 5 Feedbacks, all positive, but he has left zero FB messages for others. The auction ended Dec. 19th, and the payment finally arrived Jan. 2nd (shipped next day).

I wish I knew whether it was the bank or the account holder who reversed the payment.

It always takes my bank (WAMU) about two weeks to inform me when a check I deposit bounces. If buyers can reverse Paypal payments, how are they any different from checks? I'm in shock sitting here thinking about the dozens of items I've shipped all over the globe in the last few weeks and wondering if their Paypal payments might be reversed.

Sue



AquilaStamps
(addict)
01/15/08 07:19 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue:
Sadly you have learned that PayPal considers the buyer always right and forget the seller. All a buyer has to do is file with PayPal item not received and they get their money back. Also buyer's remorse with a Credit Card can get them their money back. If they paid PayPal with an eCheck (you should have been notified by PayPal that it was an eCheck) - they can cancel the check or the check could bounce with their bank. Usually it takes 2 business days for an eCheck to clear or Bounce.

Usually a customer simply has to file any type of dispute with eBay and they get their money back. Years ago I had a customer in Brazil and he claimed the items never arrived. I had delivery confirmation that he got it. He filed for his money back with eBay. All I got was a notification from PayPal that they had given the money back. There was no opportunity to tell them about the Delivery Confirmation or anything. If they file with eBay at least you have a chance to fight back and get your side heard.

I would suggest that if he doesn't pay you per your request thta you contact eBay with all of the emails between you and the customer and information on Delivery Confirmation if you have it. If he got his shipping back also there is now no incentive for him to return the items to you. Often in a dispute PayPal will tell the customer to return the mdse and when they have confirmation that the items were returned they give back the money. If you have a PayPal rep I would contact them and see what they can explain to you. If you don't have a rep. Get several cups of coffee a few snacks and a comfortable chair and call PayPal. Expect to be on hold forever. Don't give up - that's what they want I think - for someone to tire of being on hold and hang up. When you get a rep let's hope they are a good one and have all your ducks in a row and explain to the rep and maybe they can find out what's happening for you.

So sorry you had this happen - It's a real kick in the gut when all of a sudden they reach in and take YOUR money away. Keep us informed and hope this helped some.

Garry



bluepennylady
(Pooh-Bah)
01/15/08 07:30 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue,

I just had a Paypal payment reversed a couple of weeks ago. And this one was absolutely classic, It was a Paypal employee error. Paypal even told me it was. They sent out a mass email notifying hundreds of sellers about the reversal. Then would not correct it.

So the payment you received was an "echeck" Paypal payment? Or just a regular Instant cash" payment?

If I was you, I would file an unpaid item dispute immediately. And file all the information you have with Paypal as far as tracking information, etc. And Garry is right, give them a call.

I"m really sorry that happened. It stinks. I don't think a buyer should be able to reverse charges.



Judy/blue

Visit my eBay store!
http://stores.ebay.com/bluepennylady?refid=store
Visit our website too!
http://www.pennyworthsales.com

tictictic_OnEbay
(enthusiast)
01/15/08 09:08 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: AquilaStamps]  

Hi Garry and Judy,

I will definitely call Paypal if the buyer doesn't reinstate the payment in a day or two. How do you get a rep???

It was a regular Paypal Instant Payment. It item wasn't anything particularly breakable. I've shipped several of them in recent years. Plastic advertising thing, ships flat with sheet of cardboard (First Class). No biggie. No word from the buyer that there was any problem. Don't have Deliv Confirm; do have the PO receipt showing city, zip, weight.

Oddly enough, there is still a Dispute open for this transaction. He missed my two-week deadline then paid as soon as he got notified of the Dispute, saying he'd used someone else's account to bid and hadn't been getting my emails. Maybe he used someone else's Paypal acct, too. Hmmm.

Will let you know what happens.

Sue



AquilaStamps
(addict)
01/16/08 05:55 AM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue:
A PayPal rep is a hit and miss thing I think. I got one a few years ago - it was through an email and they gave me a name and "direct" number. The direct number is still one of those push 1 for this and 2 for that. Also over the few years the person has changed. A friend of mine that does far bigger PayPal volume than I do doesn't have a rep. So ... long story short, I'm not sure. However, I would suggest when you call them you ask for a rep and see what they offer. All they can do is say no and maybe they will give you one. One advantage is that the "rep" has your file at their fingertips and there isn't all of the same old questions about how do you spell your city, or you first or last name, and what's your secret question and answer. TRhe other advantage is you don't have to repeat a story over and over as they already know your history.

As Judy said I would file a NPB with eBay. At the very least you can get your fees back. If the buyer doesn't reply with a new payment I would also send an email and a letter to them telling them they have so many days to return your material.

Keep us informed as to what's happening. Hope this works out OK for you. It sure is no fun to have sent material and then the person gets their money back and keep the item. And really, do ask for a rep when you have them on the line.

Garry



AquilaStamps
(addict)
01/16/08 06:07 AM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue:

I forgot to say earlier that a reversal of a PayPal payment is very easy for the buyer. If they fund it with their Credit Card all they have to do is call the Credit Card company and deny payment and poof it's gone from your account. If they fund it with a regular Checking Account they can stop payment with PayPal or their bank and Poof it's gone from your account. If they file a Item Not Received with PayPal then PayPal sides with the customer and - yep you guessed it Poof it's gone from your account. If by chance you sent something with DC and you file that information with PayPal telling them you have confirmation that it was received - you will often be told never mind - the customer says they never got it. I guess PayPal assumes it was delivered to the wrong house. And once again - all together now - Poof.

There are some ways you can fight this but it isn't easy. If you noticed when you received word from PayPal there was nothing said about you disputing this. The only thing you can do is agree and even if you don't the money goes back to the buyer. This is where Phone Call after Phone Call and emails sending every bit of information you have may, I repeat MAY help.

All that being said PayPal is still pretty good except there are a few scammers out there who will do anything to get something for free. I'm not saying your person is scamming but still the money went Poof.

Garry



tictictic_OnEbay
(enthusiast)
01/16/08 12:51 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: AquilaStamps]  

Hi Garry,

As to getting a rep, I'll ask (will call in a day or two -- want to give the buyer a chance to repay). I had a good (for me) last 30 days -- took in about $2500.00 via Paypal payments (usually don't do even half that). So maybe I'll get some respect. LOL.

I requested the guy's contact info (why do the contact info emails arrive blank??? have to open the Raw Source and then pour thru all the html to find the real info). The user ID is associated with an Asian woman's name (he did say he had used his mother-in-law's ID). The phone number is in my state, so maybe I'll get in a mood to call them. Ha ha. For an eight-dollar sale. Might be fun just to see what they have to say.

Sue



tictictic_OnEbay
(enthusiast)
01/16/08 01:57 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: AquilaStamps]  

Woo hoo! He repaid. I didn't have to call anyone. He got my Dispute Console note, evidently, and reinstated the payment, sending his apologies and saying he didn't know how or why it had gotten reversed and that he hates computers sometimes. He is a newbie (so far as number of transactions), so maybe it was an innocent mistake.

Sue



bluepennylady
(Pooh-Bah)
01/16/08 02:09 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue,

Cool, Great! Excellent news!

Even if he is a newbie,, I bet you the Dispute didn't hurt at all. That always seems to get their attention even if they do whine.

I am so glad he paid you. That is wonderful!!!!!!!!



Judy/blue

Visit my eBay store!
http://stores.ebay.com/bluepennylady?refid=store
Visit our website too!
http://www.pennyworthsales.com

AquilaStamps
(addict)
01/16/08 03:44 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue:

Congratulations. That's great. He may very well have done it in error. But at least you got the payment. It's good when things work out.

Garry



tictictic_OnEbay
(enthusiast)
01/16/08 09:48 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: AquilaStamps]  

Thanks for the congrats, Judy and Garry. It worked out this time, but........

The only suggestion Paypal offers is:

"In the future, you can help protect yourself against claims and reversals by following the guidelines of our Seller Protection Policy," which says, in part, "When you receive a payment, you are liable to PayPal for the full amount of the payment plus any Fees if the payment is later invalidated for any reason." For any reason. Sheesh! This must be the bane of existence for retailers the world over.

The Agreement goes on to say, "If the transaction is eligible under the Seller Protection Policy in section 11, PayPal will cover the amount of the Reversal or Chargeback and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable."

As I read it, the most pertinent qualification requirements are:

-- US, UK, Canada only.

-- Transaction Details page must say Seller Protection Policy Eligible (not sure what makes this happen; the way the buyer funds the payment?? or is it something the seller controls??).

-- Buyer's address must be confirmed (seems like about 50% of my buyers have unconfirmed addresses).

-- Must have trackable proof of delivery (I think about 3/4 of my things go First Class, so this would be the biggest drawback for me); for transactions over $250, a signed proof-of-receipt must be viewable online (I'm not even sure what that means).

-- And no local pick-up (which would pretty much exclude large pieces of furniture, vehicles, etc.).

Just too damn much trouble, seems to me. How 'bout you guys? Does anyone on this forum make use of the Seller Protection Policy?

Last week, I shipped a $600 painting. Transferred the money to my bank account and used it to pay the credit card bill. Sure hope it doesn't go POOF à la Garry (I'll have a grilled cheese and a poof à la garry )

Sue



bluepennylady
(Pooh-Bah)
01/16/08 09:58 PM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue,

The "Seller Protection Plan" means you must ship to a confirmed address only Which means if you do that, you can't be on eBay Express because one of the requirements of ebay Express is to ship to unconfirmed addresses.

We use Tracking on all our packages, Everything even First Class. The cost is of course passe on to the buyer. The only thing that has ever saved my bacon as far as Paypal is concerned was the delivery/tracking information proofing I did indeed ship.

I agree though Sue, Paypal is more buyer protective than seller protective. And although every Paypal rep I have ever had has been extremely helpful, no two rarely if ever have the same answer for any particular issue.

I know that does not help you much at all, but at least you have an idea of what Paypal is wanting.

I am just so glad you got paid for your item.



Judy/blue

Visit my eBay store!
http://stores.ebay.com/bluepennylady?refid=store
Visit our website too!
http://www.pennyworthsales.com

AquilaStamps
(addict)
01/17/08 03:14 AM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: tictictic_OnEbay]  

Sue:

Judy is so right - PayPal and for that matter eBay is buyer protective. They don't really have anything in place for the seller. The protection program is automatic in that you don't have to do anything to get it other than follow the rules set out by PayPal. It will show on the PayPal payment page "PayPal Protection"

I understand about confirmed addresses - often times the address the buyer gives on eBay, and in their email to you have nothing in common with their PayPal confirmed address - if it is confirmed at all. My understanding is that the address you ship to has to match exactly the PayPal address. But I should be checked on that for sure - I think it is down to even the stree address format.

What you have found out is something many have been complaining about for a long while - PayPal makes it very easy for a customer to "unpay" (poof) their payment and make it possible for them to have the merchandise and their payment back at the same time.

I don't think there is a lot that can be done. As Judy said, shipping with some form of tracking is worth it and you have to decide at what price point you are willing to take a loss because of no Delivery Confirmation or Signature Confirmation. The cost can be in the opening bid of the item obviously however, some items don't have that kind of room in them to hold a delivery conformation let alone a signature confirmation price.

Anyway, I'm pleased that you were able to get your money back and that the sale finally ended up with a happy customer and seller. Hang in there Sue, it can be a bumpy ride as you know but well worth some of those bumps. It's the "poofs" that get you though.

Garry



Ned
(member)
01/17/08 09:53 AM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: AquilaStamps]  

Yesterday I told my wife about PayPal poofing. We kicked it around a bit. We were having trouble seeing how they could possibly just poof without hearing the seller's side.

I decided to play lawyer, justifying PayPal. Here's what I came up with:


If someone pays you in cash, and then when you take it to your bank you're told it's counterfeit, the payment just went poof. You were given a payment that you thought was good. It wasn't. Tough.

The analogy with an Instant Payment is pretty good. An Instant Payment is instant, but not any better than cash.


Yes, it's kind of weak. The main reason PP is nice to buyers is that there are lots more of them. It's not worth PP's time and money to referee disputes. A buyer who feels burned may never return to PP. A seller will grumble about "the cost of doing business" and keep using PP, because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Thanks for reminding me of PayPal poofing policies. The one practical thing I can think of to do is lower my threshold for insisting on an escrow service.

Ned




bluepennylady
(Pooh-Bah)
01/17/08 10:14 AM
Re: Paypal Payment Reversed! new [re: Ned]  

Ned,

I believe your analogy is fairly accurate. About the only other thing you can do to help protect yourself is to require delivery confirmation on every single package. Which we do. That cost is passed on to the buyer. It doesn't matter if it is a First Class, Parcel Post or Priority, Delivery confirmation goes on every single package. Of course, delivery confirmation on Priority is free if you use online service to process the shipping.

It has been my experience, that with delivery confirmation, as far as item not received disputes, the delivery confirmation number supports the seller and the buyer lost the dispute.

Now fraudulent card use is another matter. So to help us a bit, we do not ship "Unconfirmed shipping" address payments the same day. We wait another 24 hours to ship as usually any problems pops up in the first 24 hours.

You can also stop a package that has a delivery confirmation number on it. So let's say you ship John Doe's package today and then tomorrow the money goes "poof" Contact the USPS and they will stop your package. Even if you have to pay to have it sent back, it is better than losing the entire product. I have had to do that before. And then I required the buyer to pay the shipping cost again.

And this "poof" issue with Paypal is another reason I do not submit feedback until after the buyer has their item and all is good. If something should happen, an Unpaid item dispute can jog them along. If they don't respond, the very least I can do for the eBay community is post a negative feedback remark letting everyone know what happened. Quite effective.





Judy/blue

Visit my eBay store!
http://stores.ebay.com/bluepennylady?refid=store
Visit our website too!
http://www.pennyworthsales.com


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